tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post33039289858667151..comments2023-06-26T04:23:48.480-04:00Comments on Being The Body: Love WinsTom Battersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15950405512386595628noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-57460597692403814402011-08-18T11:08:59.394-04:002011-08-18T11:08:59.394-04:00A pastor in Canada addresses the issues of why God...A pastor in Canada addresses the issues of why God would send people to hell and allow suffering in his Skeptics Forum series - http://www.myvillagechurch.org/qry/page.taf?id=103<br /><br />I've heard many preachers try to tackle the issue, but Clark's approach is well communicated and rooted in scripture. Highly recommend giving it a listen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-52220576608109880792011-05-05T04:31:16.738-04:002011-05-05T04:31:16.738-04:00Exactly what you are saying is all correct. Such t...Exactly what you are saying is all correct. Such that your mentor has guided you in correct manner. Because many people are disagree with the reading of the page of the book. But you have read them very seriously.Michaelhttp://store.bodybuildingfactory.com/mu.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-32662353918204559772011-04-24T06:40:43.561-04:002011-04-24T06:40:43.561-04:00This is pretty typical of the Body, isn't it; ...This is pretty typical of the Body, isn't it; well, the Body looks fairly crippled -- again. Rob Bell is not saying anything which hasn't been said before by others of faith. He might be swerving slightly to the left of Conservative Evangelicalism, but not of the Kingdom. Relax. I agree with the post above me; there is very little Biblical or historical justification for loving Christians to be preaching a literal Hell. By no means does this undermine Wrath or Grace, and those who think it does have little to no imagination or capacity for intelligent theological thought. Jesus died once, and for all. To those who recognise it, there is eternal life. To those who don't, there is death, Sheol, Gehennah.Mark Burnhopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17572899539626249530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-69691675648307469862011-04-22T18:54:39.826-04:002011-04-22T18:54:39.826-04:00Our modern notion of Hell has been shaped by the c...Our modern notion of Hell has been shaped by the catholic churchs teachings over centuries of frightening people into ‘convertion’ The notion of Hell as a place of eternal torture really does cast God the loving father in a very gloomy light.<br />We would all (I hope) condemn Hitlers plan to creat a super race and either enslave or destroy those who he deemed unworthy to be included and yet if you think about it isn’t the idea of salvation for a few and eternal suffering or oblivion for the unworthy very close to Hitlers plan for mankind. The concept of Hell didn’t even come into christian thinking until the fourth century and then only a small percentage of Christians adhered to concept .. The concept isn’t scriptural because the words that are actually translated as Hell are Gehenna (an actual physical place) the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem or Sheol which is the place the departed sinners went to await judgement and where Jesus went to to share the Gospel after being crucified and before rising from the dead.<br />Scaring people into the Church used to work pretty well when only priests were allowed to read scripture. It amazes me that now anyone can read the word of God for themselves we still hold on to and preach hellfire.Tony Claynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-75206282351497590192011-04-13T17:20:49.397-04:002011-04-13T17:20:49.397-04:00One of the things people, who do not profess Jesus...One of the things people, who do not profess Jesus as Lord, hate about those who do is their propensity for jumping to conclusions.<br /><br />One of the things we take from our justice system, which took its roots from the Bible, is the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". We all want a chance to say all we have to say about our beliefs before being judged for them -- so why are we so inclined to decide what others believe (and judge them for it) before actually hearing them out?<br /><br />So far Bell has raised questions that only suggest that he doesn't hold a classic view. He has not said nothing yet that can definitively be said is heresy. I can think of many contexts where I could ask what he has asked and say what he has said without having any of the beliefs people are accusing him of having.<br /><br />Whether his beliefs are heretical or not is not currently the issue. The attacks on him from well known leaders -- without sufficient evidence to prove his is heretical are evidence of the frailty and failings of those making the attacks. All forgivable indiscretions but sad nonetheless.<br /><br />Frankly I could not think of a better way to get some of our narrow beliefs out of the "black and white" realm into reality. We cannot answer the questions unbelievers have as well as we could because we have so narrowly understood our own master that we have failed to find that truth also lies "in between black and white".<br /><br />Truth is not about seeing things as either black or white -- and a foreboding nether world composed of "shades of grey" to be avoided if you want purity.<br /><br />God put an entire color spectrum in between black and white the colors of which are perhaps more true and real than the black and white that form their borders. Why have we spent so much energy on polarizing to one border of truth or the other and failed to explore the abundant colors in between? Could it be fear or could it be baser harmonics such as jealousy?<br /><br />We haven't even learned to listen to each other sufficiently to explore such a vast domain. The book of Proverbs is blunt about those who speak to a matter before they've heard it.<br /><br />Why has the church become so full of people who put more faith in the power of the Devil to deceive than in Christ's power to enlighten?<br /><br />Are we so afraid to explore these topics without screaming "heresy" at the first sign of something we are unfamiliar with? Or worse still something we think we are familiar with...<br /><br />Have the esteemed theologians out there become so stale that they cannot recognize an amazing set of questions designed to stimulate the very issues the book explores? <br /><br />How can anyone be so secure in their certainty that Bell has concluded his comments with the obvious conclusions that people are making? <br /><br />Are so we shallow that we cannot wait to find out what he really says but feel compelled by some force to lash out with accusations and baseless attempts to put words in his mouth that are as yet unknown to us?<br /><br />Using a misleading approach to a dissertation is exactly the skill that makes for great preaching. It draws out your existing beliefs in such a way that you are given the opportunity to re-examine them in a fresh way. <br /><br />Thank God for preachers that will not just preach to tickle our ears but will risk saying radical things to get our attention and incite us to examine what we believe in new ways. I got tired of the churchy bless me club long ago.<br /><br />Life changing messages and supernatural visitations do not seem to come from either the average or common ways of seeing things.<br /><br />I think it time the goodness of God is better understood and these fundamental issues explored more deeply and expansively.<br /><br />Truth is the one thing that withstands unlimited scrutiny with no fear that it will come undone under pressureSeanhttp://www.seanwyseman.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-28628703597751828672011-03-19T14:34:50.501-04:002011-03-19T14:34:50.501-04:00"Could God say to someone truly humbled broke..."Could God say to someone truly humbled broken and desperate 'sorry too late?' Many have refused to accept the scenario in which somebody is pounding on the door apologizing, repenting, and asking God to be let in only to hear God say through the key hole 'Doors locked, sorry If only you had been here earlier, I could have done something but now its too late."<br /><br />-------------------------------<br /> I believe that is exactly what God did when HE (not Noah) shut the door of the ark and outside perished. Hebrews also speaks to the one whom God turns away from at HIs own will, not of the will of man, one who resists the Spirit. There are also the Jews in Acts to whom Paul and Stephen said, "you always resist the Holy Spirit" and "from now on we turn to the Gentiles".fisherwomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08396753704386695004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-19704948214333692242011-03-18T19:52:28.819-04:002011-03-18T19:52:28.819-04:00This situation brings up a bigger issue within our...This situation brings up a bigger issue within our community of Christians. Marcus Borg (in Heart of Christianity) suggests that we live in a time when two very different paradigms of Christian thought are out there. People on the two sides of this philosophical divide see the role of the Bible and the story of what God is doing in totally different ways.<br /><br />Can we have enough courage and grace to live side-by-side while believing differently? Are terms like "universalist" going to be used like "socialist" gets used in the political world? I am not stating my own beliefs here, but asking if a community of faith can be built with more than one kind of person.<br /><br />History would suggest that our community has little or no tolerance for differing opinion on beliefs. I hope this trend can change. In the last 10 years I've radically changed many of my own beliefs. Some old friends cannot handle these changes (while others embrace them).<br /><br />The power of truth is evident in the lives of those living by it. Can we be more silent regarding "un-truth" as we see it and more loudly proclaim what we know to be true by how we live? I hope so.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523083334223839867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-31225684540575041342011-03-08T14:42:34.163-05:002011-03-08T14:42:34.163-05:00If nothing else, this book (or rather the announce...If nothing else, this book (or rather the announcement of) are causing an open debate on what people believe.<br /><br />Unfortunately, many will draw their judgement based on what they were taught; never giving any personal study, or challenge.<br /><br />Translation Theory is a difficult discussion, but one that is going to have to be had (as we see with the arguments over 1 word, Aiwn.). <br /><br />Will look forward to seeing the remainder of the debate unfold; especially after the book is even released.Brent Rainshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06375484597229177080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-44354817398526730132011-03-08T11:44:57.183-05:002011-03-08T11:44:57.183-05:00If Jesus died for all sins past present and future...If Jesus died for all sins past present and future and "no man can come to Jesus except it is given to him of the Father". How do we send ourselves to hell? <br /><br />Most Christians admit that works do not save us. If that be true, going to Church, living a perfect life does not guarantee our salvation. If our works does not determine whether we go to heaven how can they determine whether we go to hell? {which isn't a forever burning place but a place of correction}<br /><br />Salvation is a free gift to everyone. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. The Bible says "no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit". All that bow and confess will do so by the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />A thumbs up to Rob Bell, it took guts to even publish a book that 90% of mainstream religion will see as heresy.Maenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-63595080361558063992011-03-07T11:45:56.881-05:002011-03-07T11:45:56.881-05:00It's important to keep in mind that the goal o...It's important to keep in mind that the goal of the video was to create interest in (and sell) Rob's new book. Rob is provocative, he always has been. But he raises some interesting questions. An important step in clarifying your beliefs is to talk about and even defend them. So the fact that the publicity campaign for Rob Bell’s book has provided an impetus for Christians to actually do theology (to figure out what they think about God) is a positive thing. Even if you disagree with Bell, it’s important for Christians to wrestle with what they believe. Another great resource on heaven, what it's like and who will be there is “Heaven Revealed” by Dr. Paul Enns, released this month by Moody Publishers. I recommend it. Here’s the amazon page: http://dld.bz/P8sz4grantedhttp://dld.bz/P8sznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-77303329464434626342011-03-03T17:02:30.442-05:002011-03-03T17:02:30.442-05:00Tom:
You seem to be the only one who has actually...Tom:<br /><br />You seem to be the only one who has actually read Rob's new book, and so I immensely appreciate your blog on it!<br /><br />However, the 2 quotes you gave neither prove that Rob is a universalist or disprove it. Having read it, is there any other clear information you could share with us to help us understand just what Rob is saying?<br /><br />Thanks! I'll write a review myself of the book - but only after I've read it for myself!Fr. Charles Erlandsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07209279424855242524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-74101800393921809792011-03-02T23:47:00.631-05:002011-03-02T23:47:00.631-05:00Several of you need to read the OP again. there...Several of you need to read the OP again. there's no way you can get Universalism out of this statements:<br /><br />"God must say about a number of acts and to those who would continue to do them 'Not here you won't.' Love demands freedom. We are free to resist, reject, and rebel against God's ways for us. We can have all the hell we want.""Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11890229869783893118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-68630356336156952572011-03-02T12:08:08.248-05:002011-03-02T12:08:08.248-05:00I am bothered when debates about theology always f...I am bothered when debates about theology always focus on"God is Love". God is not one characteristic. God is also holy which has connotations of alien or other. I share God's image in many ways but He is also completely unlike me in other ways. To use limited human understandings of divine love to negate the holy and just aspects of God may justify universalism but it also means our God looks suspiciously like a patron of 21st century thought. Do I hope for a wider mercy of God- yes! Can I preach that based on scripture- no.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-20331614210766410872011-03-02T04:25:19.666-05:002011-03-02T04:25:19.666-05:00I haven't read the book and know very little a...I haven't read the book and know very little about Mr. Bell, but I do know The Fathers said that being in the presence of the completely transcendent and all powerful Love of God for eternity would most likely feel like fire to anyone who was set against it. They argue if God fills all things and holds all things together how can He put anyone anywhere that He doesn't exist. God is omnipresent and God is Love, God is also completely beyond, and His Love doesn't make sense in the way we tend to think...but this ancient description of Hell as an actual place sure makes more sense to me then what I grew up thinking, which was this vision of God as an angry judge forced to practically hate his own children and throw them into a dungeon of flames because his own justice put him between a rock and a hard place and forced him to do so. That is not The Fathers teaching. <br /><br />But to be clear, The Fathers would never take the position that those fires of Love would eventually win over every soul to their creator (universalism) because that would mean we would have no choice but to accept God's Love in the end, which would mean we really had no free will or choice in the first place, which, then, of course, wouldn't be Love at all. They did however make it clear that on the other hand a man's heart could choose to surrender and be transformed by the very fire that was tormenting him after being exposed to it for who knows how long, though he also might not. So they were adamant about not teaching all will be saved, but they also were careful not to box God in and say that all couldn't be saved. There is great Freedom in God's Love, in The One Who Is Beyond and Near. And there is always Hope. But the Fathers tried to always reveal that Love and Freedom with great Hope while steering clear of heresy and assumption which could lead to its abuse. <br /><br />This is an old debate, it's just been given a flashy new facelift. If we would just get our heads out of the last few hundred years and realize that there are loads of great books and writings to feast on that existed long before Luther and Calvin became the poster boys of Christianity then we might actually become educated in what has carried orthodox Christianity through 2000 years of crazy accusations and tweets and stop being so afraid of not being able to box everything up so nice and neat and simply start Loving God and others by living a Gospel that can actually be seen and heard as Good News without confusing the Hell out of people. =) Lord have Mercy on us.dwh817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-91873333518344860622011-03-01T22:02:52.820-05:002011-03-01T22:02:52.820-05:00Thanks for posting this "preview" on the...Thanks for posting this "preview" on the book. Your opening about how you came upon reading Velvet Elvis is crazy similar to my own. Anyway, I'm hoping you won't mind answering a question?<br /><br />I've been wrestling with the doctrine of hell for about 3 years. I'm not a universalist, but I also don't subscribe to a literal, firey hell. <br /><br />QUESTION: Does Rob Bell offer any alternative possiblities to "the literal option" of what Jesus might have meant when talking about hell/hades in a couple of his parabolic comments? <br /><br />I'm really hopeful he may, can you (legally???) comment?<br /><br />Thanks again!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-8033047629787502692011-03-01T20:17:28.811-05:002011-03-01T20:17:28.811-05:00Thanks for this post. It was nice to read somethi...Thanks for this post. It was nice to read something from someone who has actually read the book.<br /><br />I linked back to it from <a href="http://pauljenkins.tv/blog/oops-looks-like-rob-bell-may-have-spilled-some-paint/" rel="nofollow">my take on this whole bruhaha</a>.Paul Jenkinshttp://www.pauljenkins.tv/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-43155190552852645812011-03-01T17:19:47.199-05:002011-03-01T17:19:47.199-05:00http://isrobbellauniversalist.tumblr.com/http://isrobbellauniversalist.tumblr.com/Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00817366385065447391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-27406587467666944462011-03-01T14:09:02.671-05:002011-03-01T14:09:02.671-05:00Desiring God (Piper) changed my life in many ways ...Desiring God (Piper) changed my life in many ways and if you sit me down in a theological discussion, you'll find me to be basically reformed. <br /><br />That said, I don't think Bell or Piper are correct in this. I've never understood telling people who you're praying for on a twitter account. Do I think it is important to form your theology and measure it by the scripture? Absolutely!! Am I concerned about the kind of fruit that much of Rob Bell's "questioning" produces?? Most definitely? Though he does claim, to my knowledge, Christ as his savior. Some one here talked about C.S. Lewis encouraging folks to question their theology. But, one of my favorite Lewis quotes is from The Great Divorce. He says that thirst is for water and inquiry for truth. We don't question in order that we keep questioning, but in order that we might find an answer. He is talking about folks who have placed themselves in a more intellectual status due to their ability to "question" things. I fear that much of my generation are intellectual inquirists and that their wanderings are swiftly leading them astray. However, I still don't think I would post their names on a Twitter account saying I was praying for them, or good riddens, of sorts. <br /><br />On the other hand, when you are promoting a book it seems prudent to state the content of your book in the promotional material. I watched the video and he does mention the idea that Hell is not real. His comments to the existence of Hell make it seem that he believes it to be contrary to the very nature of God. If, in fact, this is not his believe then it seems that he aimed to stir the pot. And, I think that to be an ugly sort of values as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-2924181284305287982011-03-01T13:44:02.749-05:002011-03-01T13:44:02.749-05:00I'm sure Rob Bell is proud to be called a here...I'm sure Rob Bell is proud to be called a heretic. I think he knows he's a heretic. Just like Jesus knew he was a heretic. Martin Luther knew he was, Galileo, even the guy who said the world was round. Heretic!! Burn him at the stake. Why is it the orthodocs who are always burning the heretics at the stake.<br />Why do people throw that word heretic around still like it has so much power. Oh no Don't call me a heretic. You do realize that unless he's catholic he can't be excommunicated by being a heretic. Protestant heretics just go create new denominations. So why waste your breath calling him a heretic. Honestly i didn't even know about Bell's new book until i saw the post that Bell is once again being called a Heretic.<br />Here's the thing- Gamaliel a very wise man once warned his friends about a jewish heretic- saying basically this. "if he's not the real thing then he'll soon fizzle out and so will his followers" But if he's the real deal then we don't want to stand in his way.<br /><br />If universalism is a heretical position than it will soon fizzle out and so will it's followers. <br /><br />However if we discover that the real heresy has been a literal hell, than it may be time for that to fizzle out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-26985887703485109092011-03-01T10:27:56.878-05:002011-03-01T10:27:56.878-05:00Rob Bell, John Piper and Matthew 18
http://theoxfo...Rob Bell, John Piper and Matthew 18<br />http://theoxfordchristian.blogspot.com/2011/03/biblical-principles-for-confrontation.html.<br />It might interest you,<br />Blessings,<br />AnitaDreaming Beneath the Spireshttp://theoxfordchristian.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-86775680959286632292011-02-28T20:54:18.356-05:002011-02-28T20:54:18.356-05:00I appreciate your post, and the quotes from Bell&#...I appreciate your post, and the quotes from Bell's book. <br /><br />I am still unsure of Bell's position due to the way he asks the questions he asks in his video. There is allot of non-verbal communication in that thing.<br /><br />At the very least, he could be more clear. That is the most distressing thing about Bell. He does not clearly state his beliefs. <br /><br />I also have a real problem with a publicity stunt like this video if he does come down to an orthodox position. What a way to sell books.J. K. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02329537522697826005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-3347391158424306062011-02-28T20:50:37.590-05:002011-02-28T20:50:37.590-05:00Thank you for this post. I look forward to reading...Thank you for this post. I look forward to reading Rob's book. I think asking tough questions to make us wake up and think on our own two feet is a good thing.Sisterlisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09697215030563741501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-32797343080876440522011-02-28T19:42:29.699-05:002011-02-28T19:42:29.699-05:00Thank you! I really appreciate your postThank you! I really appreciate your postBretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07477973363086347079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-38220179123825900892011-02-28T19:10:47.176-05:002011-02-28T19:10:47.176-05:00just a note that there are a lot of us out here wh...just a note that there are a lot of us out here who are watching the lot of you and wondering "what would jesus do"? (even though you're the ones who usually pretend to ask that question)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35827519.post-27021951428074138762011-02-28T16:30:37.224-05:002011-02-28T16:30:37.224-05:00Great Blog, thank you!
The people responsable sho...Great Blog, thank you!<br /><br />The people responsable should be sued for libel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com